Latein Forum

Der Treffpunkt von Lateinern im WWW.
Aktuelle Zeit: 23.10.2017, 03:32

Alle Zeiten sind UTC+01:00




Ein neues Thema erstellen  Auf das Thema antworten  [ 90 Beiträge ]  Gehe zu Seite Vorherige 14 5 6 7 8 9 Nächste
Autor Nachricht
 Betreff des Beitrags:
BeitragVerfasst: 11.08.2009, 08:22 
Lateiner

Registriert: 10.10.2008, 07:37
Beiträge: 112
Wohnort: Russland
Vanitas hat geschrieben:
Quasus hat geschrieben:
Nōnnūllī aiunt illud verbum rēctum nōn esse et agmen mālunt.

Magister meus quoque censuit verbum agmen non rectum esse pro verbo Germanico Zug scribere. Dicas mihi nominativus ac genetivus verbi tramine.


trāmen, inis n

Ecce autem jūdicium magistrī Scholae Latīnae Ūniversālis, quī verbum agmen māvult:
Zitat:
You will now better be able to understand why I condemn the neologism 'trámen'. Analysing it we can think that its creators formed it per derivationem from 'trahere' (let's disregard that that wouldn't explain on what criteria they chose the rare instrumental ending –men rather than any other of the many suffixes they could have chosen from for this purpose, but nevermind). Only 'trámen' is an attested word already existing in Latin and meaning some little part of a loom (it's very postclassical, and therefore I cannot check the exact meaning in the OLD, but its history is confirmed by Ernout&Meillet, Latin etymologists); so we would here rather have a neologism per catachresin, where the meaning of an attested word has been modified. In fact, this real 'trámen' doesn't derive from 'trahere', but from 'tráma' through an interference with 'subtémen' (nevermind). As a third option, we cannot avoid thinking that the word in particular has been preferred just because of its phonetic similarity with vernacular 'train'.
Now, the phonetic consideration is obviously childish. If we are going to be working like that, then we should rather use 'trámen' for vernacular 'tram', which is even closer phonetically … and whose cable structure could even remind us of a loom! This way of proceeding is obviously untenable. We end up with the derivatio and the catachresis as only serious hypotheses. We don't really know what was in the minds of those who proposed this neologism, but we do know in every possible detail the wonderfully parallel history of this word in the languages of the west. In many languages (Spanish, Italian), this word seems just to have been borrowed from French, so they don't shed much light by themselves. In French however, as much as in German, the word seems to originate per derivationem: train from traîner, Zug from ziehen. This would seem to support a 'trámen' derived from 'trahere'. Now, any philologist will be able to tell you that this is just a false impression though. Of course the forms 'train' and 'Zug' are derivatives from 'traîner' or 'ziehen', but this is to disregard the real history of the words. Neither 'train' nor 'Zug', as neologisms used to name 'a line of coaches or wagons coupled together and drawn by a railway locomotive', were coined per derivationem from 'traîner' or 'ziehen'. Both 'train' and 'Zug' already existed in Fench (and English) and German long before modern railway trains appeared! The neologism was formed per catachresin. It was not created because anyone were thinking about 'traîner' or 'ziehen'; in that case, they would have formed a modern derivative, according with contemporary 19th-century derivation patterns, something like 'traîneur' or 'traînateur'. No. The words 'train' and 'Zug', as I said, already existed in the language long before, and were well established, and people using them for the modern object were thinking of the close similarity of meaning between the established use and the one they wanted to incorporate. Both 'train' and 'Zug' were, as early as the 12th century in French (and apparently the 16th in German), widely used for convoys of people and animals, particularly in the army. It was this attested word with its attested meaning that, due to the undeniable similarity, was amplified in meaning (per catachresin) to designate also the railway train. So, although 'train' and 'Zug' are formally related to 'traîner' and 'ziehen', the process whereby 'train' and 'Zug' were adopted to designate 'a line of coaches or wagons coupled together and drawn by a railway locomotive' was the catachresis of their already well established meaning as applied to many other sorts of convoys. This is an objective and philologically and historically established fact. If we want to be objective about the coining of Latin neologisms, this is the method of novatio we should carefully reproduce in Latin in this case, not only to be fair to the history of western civilisation and of (railway) trains in particular, but also to the Latin language itself, for two reasons. First, because using 'agmen' (also a derivative from agere, but this is irrelevant because what matters here is the established use of the word whose meaning we are going to slightly amplify per catachresin) is being true to the well established and legitimate meaning of 'agmen' already in classical Latin as convoy of people, animals or vehicles, and allows us to further understand this meaning and bring it to new life; and, second, because using 'tramen' for this is so far removed from the real and legitimate Latin meaning of that word as a part of the loom that it could rightly be said to corrupt it. But as I said, the main reason is that 'agmen' is the only solution that objectively respects the history of the thing in western civilisation. Everything else is arbitrary, chaotic and esperantic wishy-washy treatment of the Latin language, giving rise to the legion of mutually contradictory neologisms that float around among modern Latin speakers.

Ergō, ut vidēs, rēs est anceps.

Vanitas hat geschrieben:
Estne melius pro aeroplano verbum navis aerea scribere?

Forsitan rēctē loquāris.

Vanitas hat geschrieben:
Quasus hat geschrieben:
Vestrum sermōnem...

Errone?


Immō minimē errās! Scīlicet animō haud attentō scrībēbam.

Vanitas hat geschrieben:
Fabricandō fit faber!
Mihi quoque valde placet:D

...Tibi sciendum est, quod scilicet studeo rectis bonisque sententiis scribere. (Nōnne a.c.i. aptius sit? ...mē... studēre.)


Id profectō plānē sciō et tē exhortārī semper tentō. :)

Vanitas hat geschrieben:
Incepistine aliis cum hominibus linguam Latinam discere aut solis ex libris interreteque?


Semper sōlus discō. Nēmō inter meōs familiārēs Latīnitātī operam dat, nōnnisi in interrete tālēs inveniō. Cum discere coeperem, in animō nōn habēbam eōs quaerere cum quibus Latīnē colloquī possem, quia eō tempore in interrēte omnīnō nōn versābar. Nunc tamen pergrātum mihi est nōnnūllōs collocūtōres amabilēs invēnisse. :)


Nach oben
   
 Betreff des Beitrags:
BeitragVerfasst: 13.08.2009, 18:38 
Lateiner

Registriert: 04.06.2009, 16:37
Beiträge: 227
Eo magistro credo; sed verbo "tramen" potius utor, quod Romani forsan aliud verbum pro "Train[Anglice]" invenissent, si adhuc viverent; forsanque eum verbum numquam pro verbo "Train" usi essent.
Quam ob rem censeo, quod res novae, velut "Train, plain, Car", per verba nova, velut "tramen, autocinetum" describantur.
Sola opinio mea est.

Tibi sciendum est, quod scilicet studeo rectis bonisque sententiis scribere. (Nonne a.c.i. aptius sit? ...me... studere.)

Opinor has duas facultates licere. http://www.zeno.org/Georges-1913/A/stud ... du*+stude*
Versu circiter septimo decimo scriptarum.

In Latin Forum libenter lego; saepe nil sriptorum vestrorum intellegens legere tantum conor; verba pleraque ignoro enim.

Incipistine iam Linguam Francogallicam discere?


Nach oben
   
 Betreff des Beitrags:
BeitragVerfasst: 16.08.2009, 16:48 
Lateiner

Registriert: 04.06.2009, 16:37
Beiträge: 227
Tibi sciendum est, quod scilicet studeo rectis bonisque sententiis scribere. (Nonne a.c.i. aptius sit? ...me... studere.)
Ne quidem cogitabam, dum paginam Zeno.org conspicio; enim credo scriptum meum falsum esse.

Non pro certo habeo, sed ita rectum sit; errone?
Tibi sciendum est, quod scilicet studeo rectas bonasque sententias scribere.


Nach oben
   
 Betreff des Beitrags:
BeitragVerfasst: 18.08.2009, 11:25 
Lateiner

Registriert: 10.10.2008, 07:37
Beiträge: 112
Wohnort: Russland
Vanitas hat geschrieben:
Tibi sciendum est, quod scilicet studeo rectis bonisque sententiis scribere.


Ita prōpōnō:

Tibi sciendum est mē sententiīs rēctīs bonīsque scīlicet studēre.

Haud sciō an liceat quod scrībere.

Vanitas hat geschrieben:
Incipistine iam Linguam Francogallicam discere?


Oui, je l'ai déjà commencé! Coepī. :D Et anteā paulum scīvī; spērō mē satis citō prōgredī. Invēnī etiam methodam quandam Germānicam, sed nunc mihi ōtium deest, ut hīs omnibus linguīs operam dem.

In Latinforō nōn omnēs plānē scrībunt, itaque nōnnunquam auctōris culpā fit ut scrīpta nōn intellegās. ;)

Quid plūra? :?


Nach oben
   
 Betreff des Beitrags:
BeitragVerfasst: 19.08.2009, 14:23 
Lateiner

Registriert: 04.06.2009, 16:37
Beiträge: 227
Tibi sciendum est mē sententiīs rēctīs bonīsque scīlicet studēre.
Hunc propositum optimam facultem puto. Etiam bonum auditur.

Quote hat geschrieben:
Haud sciō an liceat quod scrībere.

Cur non?

Quasus hat geschrieben:
Oui, je l'ai déjà commencé!

Sic est, iam incepi!
Cito discis. Ac - qui seper dico - prorsus solus ac ex interrete.
Fateo:
Etiam libenter alias linguas discerem, si mihi voluntas essem.


Quid plura?
Nescio quid exitimes. Fortasse Pleraque?


Nach oben
   
 Betreff des Beitrags:
BeitragVerfasst: 21.08.2009, 10:50 
Lateiner

Registriert: 10.10.2008, 07:37
Beiträge: 112
Wohnort: Russland
Vanitas hat geschrieben:
Quote hat geschrieben:
Haud sciō an liceat quod scrībere.

Cur non?


Scīre est enim verbum sentiendī, quae verba plūrimum a.c.i. comituntur.

Vanitas hat geschrieben:
Cito discis. Ac - qui seper dico - prorsus solus ac ex interrete.
Fateo:
Etiam libenter alias linguas discerem, si mihi voluntas essem.


Nōn dubitō quīn ipse nōnnūlla inveniēs errāta quae ex animō parum attentō orta sunt. ;)

Quid plūra? est locūtiō in quō verbum dīcam nōn expressum intellegitur. Ergō, "Was sage ich noch? Qu'est-ce que je dirai de plus?" :D

Hodiē māne magnō cum gaudiō librum W.S. Allen Vōx Latīna in interrēte repperī. Vērō quī quaerit repperit! Ille liber clārissumus dē prōnūntiātiōne Latīnā tractat. Sī es cūriōsus, nexum tibi praebēbō.


Nach oben
   
 Betreff des Beitrags:
BeitragVerfasst: 24.08.2009, 19:26 
Lateiner

Registriert: 04.06.2009, 16:37
Beiträge: 227
Quasus hat geschrieben:
Scire est enim verbum sentiendi, quae verba plurimum a.c.i. comituntur.


Sic est! Semper autem ratus sum nonnullos verbum quod pro ACI uti et nullam differentiam esse. Noverisne forsan aliquae pagina in qua de verbo quod aliquid cognosco.

Quaeso, libenter hunc nexum cognosco. Nam libenter de pronuntiatione Latina cognosco, quae adhuc discere volo.

Quasus hat geschrieben:
Nōn dubitō quīn ipse nōnnūlla inveniēs errāta quae ex animō parum attentō orta sunt.


Ignosce, eum scriptum haud prorsus intellego.
Verba post verbum quae non intellego. parum = zu wenig; ex animo = aufrichtig, mit ganzem Herzen; attento = ?; orta sunt = entstehen, sich erheben
Forsan id Germanice scribas. Optimum est te linguam Germanicam didicisse ;)

Quid plūra?
Paulatim sermonem nostrum finire arbitror. Sed quid dicatur?

Sed unum rogatio mihi est. Quando scis quod verbum pro weil, da[Germanice] uteris? Ergo quod verbo ex cum, quia, quod.


Nach oben
   
 Betreff des Beitrags:
BeitragVerfasst: 26.08.2009, 17:56 
Lateiner

Registriert: 10.10.2008, 07:37
Beiträge: 112
Wohnort: Russland
Vanitas hat geschrieben:
Semper autem ratus sum nonnullos verbum quod pro ACI uti et nullam differentiam esse.


Omnēs meī librī ajunt verba sentientī ACI petere, in lexicō autem scrīprum est "in humilī sermōne conjūnctiō quod nōnnunquam prō ACI dīcitur."

Vanitas hat geschrieben:
Verba post verbum quae non intellego. parum = zu wenig; ex animo = aufrichtig, mit ganzem Herzen; attento = ?; orta sunt = entstehen, sich erheben
Forsan id Germanice scribas. Optimum est te linguam Germanicam didicisse ;)


In lexicō invēnī animus parum attentus = Unaufmerksamkeit. Hōc cōgnitō, arbitror te omnia intellēctūrum esse.

cum, quia, quod ipse incertus sum. Ōlim in enchidriīs quibusdam dē illīs lēgī, sed haud clāre quaestiō explānāta est. Sī quid nōscam, tibi narrābō.

Librum quī Vōx Latīna nōminātur ē quōvīs locō extrahere potes:
http://uploading.com/files/W85JI6Z7/Vox ... l.rar.html
http://depositfiles.com/files/epfs8rcpx
http://rapidshare.com/files/265524609/V ... ssical.rar
Etiam in librō W.S. Allen, Accent and Rhythm dē prōnūntiātiōne agitur, quem librum hīc invenīre potes:
http://uploading.com/files/Q97O7G0Z/0521108594.rar.html
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=OE0J6GIW

Spērō nostrum sermōnem nōn esse fīnitūrum, sed nempe dēficit. Opus est aliquam quaestiōnem ad agitandum invenīre. ;)

Herī epistulam ad Scholam Latīnam Ūniversālem mīsī ut ad eam ascrībār, sed ē respōnsō intellēxī gregem discipulōrum esse complētum. Schade! :(


Nach oben
   
 Betreff des Beitrags:
BeitragVerfasst: 27.08.2009, 10:32 
Lateiner

Registriert: 10.10.2008, 07:37
Beiträge: 112
Wohnort: Russland
Dē Scholā errāvī, nam discipulōs ascrībere tunc nōn coepērunt. Itaque, discipulus illīus Scholae sum! :) :) :)


Nach oben
   
 Betreff des Beitrags:
BeitragVerfasst: 28.08.2009, 17:42 
Lateiner

Registriert: 04.06.2009, 16:37
Beiträge: 227
Etiam verba et sentiendi et dicedi ACI petere didici; semper hoc verbum idem ut ACI esse putabam.

Quasus hat geschrieben:
...arbitror te omnia intellectura esse.

Vero! Nunc intellego, gratias tibi ago. Cupivisti mea errata invenio; aut erro?
Vanitas hat geschrieben:
Cito discis. Ac - qui seper dico - prorsus solum ac ex interrete. Fateor:
Etiam libenter alias linguas discerem, si mihi voluntas essem.



Quasus hat geschrieben:
Opus est aliquam quaestionem ad agitandum invenire.

Placet nobis sermonem nostrum non finiendum esse. Quanto opere laetor tecum sermonem Latinum habere.

Quoque mox librum "Im Westen nichts Neues" emam; modo lego aliquem librum Anglicum de verbis evanescentibus in machina computatoria[computer].

Gratias tibi ago ob nexus. Proxima hebdomada eas paginas lego.

Nexus hodie de Schola nondum aperire possum. Hoc die nullum scriptum ostenditur ut heri pervesperi.
Scisne, quid agam? Forsan iterum nexum mihi des.
De Schola mox aliquid scribam, ubi paginam legi.

Ceterum, qui nomen Quasus inveniebas?
Ita? http://www.zeno.org/Pape-1880/A/%CF%84% ... ?hl=quasus


Nach oben
   
Beiträge der letzten Zeit anzeigen:  Sortiere nach  
Ein neues Thema erstellen  Auf das Thema antworten  [ 90 Beiträge ]  Gehe zu Seite Vorherige 14 5 6 7 8 9 Nächste

Alle Zeiten sind UTC+01:00


Wer ist online?

Mitglieder in diesem Forum: 0 Mitglieder und 2 Gäste


Du darfst keine neuen Themen in diesem Forum erstellen.
Du darfst keine Antworten zu Themen in diesem Forum erstellen.
Du darfst deine Beiträge in diesem Forum nicht ändern.
Du darfst deine Beiträge in diesem Forum nicht löschen.

Suche nach:
Gehe zu:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
Deutsche Übersetzung durch phpBB.de